WHERE WAS OSWALD BETWEEN 11.45AM AND 12.30PM (according to the witnesses )

[fobrien1]

before we can possibly state as fact that oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30pm firing a rifle we first have to find out if it can be proven that he was up there at that time . this is not just that he was up there at 12.30pm but also we have to consider that he had to have time to assemble the snipers nest as he stands accused . but also we have to consider that he had to assemble the rifle .

lets start with the warren commission .


(c) Oswald's whereabouts

As for Oswald's presence on the sixth floor shortly before the assassination, the committee considered the testimony of Oswald's fellow employees at the depository. Although a number of them placed him on the fifth or sixth floor just before noon, a half hour before the assassination, one recalled he was on the first floor at that same time. (115) The committee decided not to try to reconcile the testimony of these witnesses. Whether Oswald was on the first, fifth or sixth floor at noon, he could have still been on the sixth floor at 12:30. There was no witness who said he saw Oswald anywhere at the time of the assassination, and there was no witness who claimed to have been on the sixth floor and therefore in a position to have seen Oswald, had he been there. (warren report)


ok its important that we know the true facts about oswalds whereabouts certainly between about 11.40am and 12.30pm on november 22 1963 .

the warren report uses this wording

" As for Oswald's presence on the sixth floor shortly before the assassination, the committee considered the testimony of Oswald's fellow employees at the depository" warren report

the above tends to infer that the commission was stating that (based on testimony of witnesses who worked in the depository ) oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30 pm and seen by one or more witnesses . after all if NO WITNESSES ever said they saw oswald at 12.30 on the 6th floor what could there be in their testimony in regards this matter to consider ? . ITS A FACT that no witness (depository employee ) ever said or testified that they saw oswald on the 6th floor at 12.30 .

"The committee decided not to try to reconcile the testimony of these witnesses. Whether Oswald was on the first, fifth or sixth floor at noon, he could have still been on the sixth floor at 12:30" warren report

they decided not to try to reconcile the testimony ? , i find this unbelievable , how can a commission supposedly setup to investigate THE PRESIDENTS MURDER conduct a proper so called investigation without talking to all available witnesses and to use their words to RECONCILE testimonies to the extent that they know AS BEST THEY POSSIBLY CAN what every witness saw and whether they saw oswald and at what times ? .

the warren report says HE COULD STILL HAVE BEEN ON THE 6TH FLOOR AT 12.30 . could he ? well we will try to determine that , but such a determination also requires that (if oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30) oswald must make his way down the stairs again . we will try to address these questions  , some here on this thread for sure and perhaps in a second thread .


"Although a number of them placed him on the fifth or sixth floor just before noon, a half hour before the assassination, one recalled he was on the first floor at that same time" warren report


as that reads above it appears that the commission is saying multiple witnesses saw oswald on the 5th or 6th floor at or just before noon and a half an hour before the shooting ONE WITNESS RECALLED THAT HE SAW OSWALD ON THE 1ST FLOOR . the implication there i believe is that if multiple witnesses said they saw oswald on the 5th or 6th floors and only one said he was on the 1st floor that more consideration should be given to the multiple witness sightings . if we were talking about the same CORRECT times there might be a point , but as we shall see we are .

the warren commission it seems wanted to keep all these witnesses as near to midday as possible probably because they coincided with givens saying he went BACK UP to the 6th floor to retrieve his cigarettes and that he saw oswald on the 6th floor at 11.55am or so . we will look at mr givens again and the just mentioned claim but for now we will continue with the timing and oswalds whereabouts .

the floor laying staff broke for lunch in and around 11.45am , they went down in two elevators one racing the other down , oswald said SEND THE ELEVATOR BACK UP and that he would follow them down . as we will see oswald WENT DOWN SHORTLY THERE AFTER . just to clarify , the elevators in the depository in 63 had wooden gates , when they were up they could not be called to other floors , when the gate was down people could call the elevator to other floors . so when oswald said send the elevator up what that meant was close the gate so he can call the elevator back up . both elevators were used to get downstairs , and remembering that jfk was due to pass by and with that excitement people could forget to pull the gate down .


so this thread will focus on oswalds whereabouts between about 11.40am and 12.30pm . and any and all witnesses who saw oswald during that time .

there was a floor laying crew on the 6th floor laying new plywood flooring , they were supervised by bill shelly . some of these witnesses also figure in other parts of this case , and we will no doubt return to them .

HAROLD NORMAN

in testimony norman did not indicate that he saw oswald between the times discussed on this thread . he did say however that while in the lunchroom with jarmin that he remembered someone else was in there but he didnt know who . but on film in the men who killed kennedy part 4 at 6 minutes and 50 seconds or so he stated that HE SAW OSWALD ON THE 1ST FLOOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES BEFORE THE MOTORCADE WAS DUE TO PASS THROUGH DEALEY . he was specific in saying that he remembered seeing oswald because oswald was an order filler and he (norman) was an order checker . now there are a few points here , lets address the time scale norman gave of 30 minutes before the motorcade was supposed to arrive .

the motorcade was SUPPOSED TO ARRIVE IN DEALEY at about 12.20pm give or take . it ran late as jfk went to meet people at the airport and i believe he also stopped enroute to greet some people . in any case the motorcade was late , the time it did pass the depository (12.30) was not the time it should have passed , it should have passed by there a reasonable estimation is about 12.20 . when norman said 30 minutes before the motorcade was SUPPOSED TO ARRIVE , that would put normans encounter with oswald on the 1st floor at 11.50am . the 30 minutes is an estimation as there was no indication from norman that he looked at a watch or clock . but as oswald was seen at that same time or a bit later by other witnesses on the 1st floor i feel its not unreasonable to say that 11.50am or a few minutes prior is not far off the mark .



BILL SHELLY (oswalds supervisor)

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12.


so bill shelly saw oswald at about 11.50am ON THE IST FLOOR , as a supervisor one would imagine he would be aware of the time . so id say 11.50am is probably pretty accurate .



CHARLES GIVENS


i dont usually like to cite givens as i dont consider him reliable FOR A FEW REASONS but our lone nut friends (people who say oswald did it and did it alone ) cite and quote him all the time . i wont cite him for accuracy , i will cite him simply for the statement he gave the FBI on november 22 . now in the interest of honesty and clarity givens first statement an affidavit makes no mention of seeing oswald , but he spoke with the fbi that same day (november 22) and they recorded that he said HE SAW OSWALD AT ABOUT 11.50 AM in the lunchroom reading a newspaper . givens in testimony denied ever giving the fbi this statement , the commission in their wisdom decided not to call the fbi and agent odum (who was giving testimony anyway) and ask them to clarify DID GIVENS GIVE THE STATEMENT . im certain had he told the fbi  I SAW LEE ON THE 6TH FLOOR ABOUT 12.10 that they would have fell all over them selves getting odum in there to corroborate the statement . that wasnt the case as givens was saying he saw oswald DOWN STAIRS on the 1st floor at 11.50am .

sworn affidavit

"I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street. I worked up on the 6th floor today until about 11:30 am. Then I went downstairs and into the bathroom. At twelve o'clock I took my lunch period. I went to the parking lot at Record and Elm street. I have a friend who works at the parking lot. We walked up to Main and Record when the President passed by. We then walked back to the parking lot after the President had passed by. We had just got back to the lot when we heard the shooting. I think I heard three shots. I did not see anyone in the building that was not supposed to be there this morning." charles givens


FBI STATEMENT / REPORT

?On November 22, 1963, Givens worked on the sixth floor of the building until about 11:30 A.M. when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor where he used the restroom at about 11:35 A.M. or 11:40 A.M.  Givens then walked around on the first floor until 12 o'clock noon, at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood for several minutes...Givens recalls observing Lee working on the fifth floor during the morning filling orders. Lee was standing by the elevator in the building at 11:30 A.M when Givens went to the first floor. When he started down in the elevator, Lee yelled at him to close the gates on the elevator door so that he (Lee) could have the elevator returned to the sixth floor?Givens observed Lee reading a newspaper in the domino room where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M.? This FBI report expanded on a statement signed by Givens on the day before (24H210). Givens swore "I worked on the sixth floor today until about 11:30 A.M. Then I went downstairs and into the bathroom. At twelve o'clock I took my lunch period. I went to the parking lot at Record and Elm Street."

what is of interest here is that the time given above is again 11.50am is in and around the very same time that norman gave and that shelly gave , and it fits in with our next witness .


EDDIE PIPER


Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Oswald, that worked there?
    Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; I know of him.
    Mr. BALL. You knew of him?
    Mr. Piper. Yes.

    Mr. BALL. Did you know him personally?
    Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
    Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?
    Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
    Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
    Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
    Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
    Mr. PIPER. Yes.
    Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
    Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking.
    Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you remember that day, don't you?
    Mr. PIPER. Yes.
    Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day?
    Mr. PIPER. 10 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. That was your usual time to go to work?
    Mr. PIPER. Yes.
    Mr. BALL. And, did you see Oswald that morning?
    Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BALL. Where?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor filling orders.
    Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?
    Mr. PIPER You mean all day---the rest of the day?
    Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. PIPER. No.
    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.


even if we exclude givens that is now 3 witnesses norman , shelly and piper who all said OSWALD LEFT THE 6TH FLOOR AND WAS ON THE 1ST FLOOR between 11.45am and 12.00pm . these witnesses saw oswald AFTER they broke for lunch and AFTER they had gone down stairs and AFTER he had said SEND THE ELEVATOR BACK UP . so its now beyond doubt that oswald did indeed LEAVE THE 6TH FLOOR AND GO DOWN TO THE 1ST FLOOR . and he had to have gone down pretty close to when the the floor laying staff broke for lunch as im certain harold norman THE ORDER CHECKER would have been going to lunch about the same time . and I KNOW he too wanted to go out and see jfk , as he did indeed do with james jarmin .


and we know he was still on the 1st floor at about 12.00 as eddie piper not only saw him but he spoke to him also .


just briefly back to charles givens . givens original statement SEE ABOVE state that he came down to the 1st floor at break time , he went to the bathroom to wash up , he walked around the 1st floor a while untill midday when he left the building and went to see a friend . he would later add to these statements . he would say that he went BACK UP STAIRS at 11.55am to the 6th floor to retrieve his cigarettes and that he saw oswald up there near the corner where the snipers nest was . mr givens was a man of many statements here is what jack revill of the dallas police had to say about mr givens

     February 13, 1964

Lt. Jack Revill of the Dallas police was interviewed by FBI agent Robert
Gemberling about press rumors of a Negro being held in protective custody.
Revill "stated that Givens had been previously handled by the Special
Services Bureau on a marijuana charge and he believes that GIVENS WOULD
CHANGE HIS STORY FOR MONEY."  Gemberling's report repeats the story of the
elevator race during which Oswald yelled to Givens to close the gates when
he got off (CD 735, pages 296-297).

"GIVENS WOULD CHANGE HIS STORY FOR MONEY."

well mr givens story was certainly changing .

[fobrien1]

CAROLYN ARNOLD


carolyn arnolds statements are in evidence BUT SHE DISPUTED THEM lets have a look .


Statement to FBI, 26 November 1963

    Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

    She stated thereafter she viewed the Presidential Motorcade and heard the shots that were fired at the President; however, she could furnish no information of value as to the individual firing the shots or any other information concerning OSWALD, whom she stated she did not know and had merely seen him working in the building.

    on 11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas
    File # DL 89?43
    by Special Agent Richard E. Harrison

    (Warren Commission Document 5, p.41



Statement to FBI, 18 March 1964

    DL 100?10461

    I, Mrs. R. E. (Carolyn) Arnold, hereby freely and voluntarily make the following statement to E. J. Robertson who has identified himself as a Special Agent of the F.B.I.

    My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.

    On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker n?e Rackley, 3600? Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.

    I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot.

    On the morning of November 22, 1963, I do not remember seeing any stranger in the building housing the Texas School Book Depository.

    I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12:25 PM, November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date.

    I have read the above statement consisting of one and one?half pages and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge

    Mrs. R. E. (CAROLYN) ARNOLD

    Witnesses:

        E. J. ROBERTSON, Special Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64
        THOMAS T. TRETTIS, Jr., Specail Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64

    (Warren Commission Document 706, p.7)





    FBI Radiogram, 31 March 1964

    Note continued:

    Commission by letter 3/16/64 requested signed statements be obtained from every person known to have been in Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63. Each statement must contain six specified items. Dallas has obtained 75 signed statements and above corrections as indicated necessary before dissemination can be made. As soon as necessary information and data is obtained, from Dallas, appropriate dissemination to Commission will be made.

    (FBI HQ JFK Assassination File 62?109060?55)



what the above snippet means is that the dallas fbi agents were ordered by j edgar hoover to get statements from witnesses , and each agent was given orders to ask each witness 6 specific things . one of those specific items was TO ASK IF WITNESSES HAD SEEN OSWALD AT 12.30 . so arnolds second fbi statement makes no mention of seeing oswald at all , our LN (lone nut advocate )friends make much of that but most are aware that arnold was asked specifically about 12.30pm in her second statement . she never saw oswald at 12.30 , she like everyone else was busy looking at jfk SO IN NOT MENTIONING seeing oswald in her second statement it was because she was asked ONLY if she saw him at 12.30 SHE DIDNT so she had no reason to mention it . but then as the questioning was specific to 12.30 had she seen oswald at 12.15 she would not have mentioned it either , why if an investigation wants to find out about all of oswalds movements would hoover order his agents to ask witnesses ONLY about 12.30 when he knew no depository witness saw oswald ? . why not ask witnesses about any and every sighting of oswald that day ? well if you dont want people to know for example that oswald DID LEAVE THE 6TH FLOOR and that he was down stairs at the very least till midday (as opposed to him never leaving the 6th floor and setting up his snipers nest ) well ONLY asking witnesses if they saw oswald at 12.30 would help .



now author earl golz asked miss arnold about her statements


Earl Golz Interviews Carolyn Arnold

In an interview with the journalist Earl Golz in 1978, Carolyn Arnold claimed that ?she saw Oswald in the 2nd?floor lunchroom as she was on her way out of the depository to watch the presidential motorcade ?. She left the building at 12:25pm.? (Earl Golz, ?Was Oswald in Window?,? Dallas Morning News, 26 November 1978, p.13A; available as PDF).

Golz quotes her as saying that Oswald

?was sitting there ? in one of the booth seats on the right?hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.?

She explicitly denied that her sighting of Oswald took place near the front doors: ?Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn?t make any sense to me.?


arnold left her offices and said she stopped on her way down for a drink of water , she stepped into the 6th floor lunchroom where the water was , and there she saw oswald . she said this was in and around 12.15 or so . two other ladies were with her , one was virgie rachley , she corroborated the time as being in and around 12.15 .

author gerald posner tried to discredit arnold in his book case closed by stating in effect that either miss arnold was mistaken or that she lied because THE OTHER TWO LADIES WITH HERE NEVER SAW OSWALD . what mr posner omitted to tell his readers was that ARNOLD STEPPED INSIDE THE LUNCHROOM and only then did she see oswald , the two other ladies NEVER ENTERED THE LUNCHROOM . so the two ladies i believe told the truth THEY DIDNT SEE OSWALD , but posner twisted that to appear as tho all three ladies were standing side by side and that these two ladies didnt see oswald there when arnold said he was . they were never in a position to see oswald in the booths as they were outside the lunchroom.

so mrs arnold disputed the first statement attributed to her , which had her saying she saw oswald by the front door at 12.25pm . miss arnold was by no means the only witness to dispute an fbi statement or testimony .

now i dont simply say a witness said A , B or C and that we must believe them , we should evaluate each witness . in doing that i ask was mrs arnold ever proven to be a liar ? , THE ANSWER HERE IS NO . did mrs arnold ever write any books about the assassination ? THE ANSWER IS NO . nor did she sell her story for newspaper articles or tv ? the answer is NO. in fact she went off and married and got on with her life  . so its clear she did not seek attention , its clear she did not seek fame , and its abundantly clear that she never tried to make any money from this case . and that is AT ANY TIME . so then one has to ask WHAT COULD SHE POSSIBLY GAIN BY LYING ? , and the only conclusion one can reach is that she would gain nothing at all . so i see no reason at all to assert that she  lied , she told the truth .

what that means is that oswald having left the 1st floor and eddie piper at midday went up to the 2nd floor lunchroom . and if you read pipers testimony he says when talking to oswald that oswald mumbled that either he was going out to eat or UP TO EAT , so pipers testimony fits with this . that means that oswald was still down stairs atleast untill 12.15 or so , and we must bear in mind that jfks motorcade ARRIVED LATE it was due to pass the depository about 12.20 or so . and the limos late arrival on elm must be taken in to account , even if the commission didnt do that , because the commission simply had to make sure oswald had time get up stairs and back down again .

this of course still leaves time to get up stairs , but we must remember that another man williams was on the 6t floor sat not 12 feet away from the snipers nest untill 12.20pm or so , if oswald leaves the 2nd floor lunchroom at a time approaching 12.20 to go up to the 6th floor he has to get on the 6th floor and in the snipers nest while williams is there . williams did leave at some time approaching 12.25 but if jfk is on time and oswald is the assassin by that time oswald IS TOO LATE . of course oswald could have got lucky , saw that the limo had not yet arrived , ran up stairs with very little time to spare JUST MISSING WILLIAMS , moved boxes into place , assembled the rifle and shot jfk . but even that poses a problem , howard brennan said the shooter was in the window ASSEMBLED RIFLE IN HAND from about 12.23 . and arnold rowland saw a man in a 6th floor window NOT THE SNIPERS NEST WINDOW at 12.15 pm with an assembled rifle when carolyn arnold said OSWALD WAS IN THE 2ND FLOOR LUNCHROOM .

the warren commission , the FBI and our lone nut friends have to ignore many problems in order to make their lone nut scenario work , they insist oswald was on the 6th floor PERIOD and that any witness saying otherwise was mistaken or a liar , i simply state that HE COULD HAVE BEEN UP THERE as strictly speaking there was JUST ABOUT enough time to get up there given the above witnesses JUST ABOUT . but im sure that rational honest people reading this will see that while it wasnt impossible that it was atleast very difficult .

[fobrien1]

these time scales that i speak of (for example 11.45am to 12.30pm ) are based on witness statements and testimony and on other things like the transcript of the police radio logs . and we have to ascertain as best as we can what happened based on all the information we have .

we cant be certain to the exact second , no one can , all we can try and do is try and reach as accurate a time scale as is humanly possible based on all the available information , and that's what ive done . its not completely impossible for Oswald to have been in the snipers nest at some time approaching 12.25 pm we have to concede that , it is possible all tho very difficult for the reasons i outlined , and its not impossible that Oswald some how managed to get into the stair case before garner /styles and adams arrived , but as i said earlier it is extremely difficult considering what Oswald had to have done and how much ground he had to cover , not impossible but i feel very difficult . people have to think about all this and decide for them selves if Oswald could have done it .

so why are these time scales important ? well its because i believe the time scales ive spoken about and talk about here cast serious doubt on the warren commissions findings of Oswalds guilt or lone guilt .

in post number 1 above i detailed where witnesses said oswald was between 11.45 am and 12.30pm . some infer or state as fact that OSWALD WAS ON THE 6TH FLOOR AT 11.45 AM AND THAT HE STAYED THERE RIGHT UP TO 12.30PM . we now know via multiple witnesses that the above is not true . oswald was on the 6th floor at about 11.40am filling orders (this is another subject we will return to in another thread) while his co workers were laying new plywood floor there , they left at about 11.45 am and had an elevator race down . while in the elevator oswald was heard to say send the elevator back up . several minutes later oswald had left the 6th floor and was seen on the 1st floor and later 2nd floor BY MULTIPLE WITNESSES . if we accept all these witnesses oswald was down on the lower floors untill a time approaching 12.20pm . so the truth according to the witnesses is not quite what some authors and the warren commission say it is .


now bonnie ray Williams (sorry i should clarify that bonny ray is a man , some people (LNs) who ive spoken to think its a lady its not lol ) took his lunch up to the 6th floor at about midday or a tad later  , and he stayed there until 12.20 or so , he sat on boxes about 12 feet from the so called snipers nest . so if we say that oswald was on the 2nd floor at a time approaching 12.20 , and that after carolyn arnold left the lunchroom he ran upstairs well he has to negotiate bonny ray williams who was still up there untill nearly 12.25pm .now lets look at williams , where he sat , what he heard and what he saw .

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.

so bonny ray was on the 6th floor at midday sat about 12 feet from the snipers nest window , and he was there until 12.20 or so , if Oswald was the shooter this really is problematic for the warren commission . the reason being we know Oswald was down stairs on the 1st floor till atleast midday , so (ignoring carolyn arnold for a minute ) assuming for a minute that Oswald came up stairs to the 6th floor just after midday I really see only two possible scenarios here  . Oswald either had to walk right past Williams who was sat there on the boxes of books feet from the snipers nest window and into the snipers nest , or some how Oswald got up to the 6th floor before bonny and sneaked into the snipers nest . Oswald didn't pass bonny ray , that can then only leave one possibility that Oswald was already hiding in the snipers nest at midday when bonny ray arrived on the 6th floor . but the  witnesses eddie piper (who saw Oswald at midday on the 1st floor ) and Carolyn Arnold (who saw him down on the 2nd floor ) I believe make that scenario all but impossible , to accept that Oswald was on the 6th floor at midday and then down on the 2nd floon at 12.15 one has to believe that Oswald left his snipers nest about 12.10 or so and walked passed bonny ray who was sat just feet away and then go down stairs to the 2nd floor where Carolyn Arnold saw him at 12.15 , and then come back up stairs again and avoid being seen by williams who was still there .  it just makes no sense and again we know bonny ray didn't see Oswald .

now as with about all aspects of this case nothing is quite as it seems , there is always more to the story then people are told . authors and tv shows etc like to say that bonny ray left the 6th floor after a few minutes maybe as early as 12.05 , but that simply IS NOT TRUE  . the reason they say Williams left so early is to allow Oswald to get on the 6th floor unseen and give him time to build his snipers nest and assemble his rifle , so they need bonny ray out of the way quickly , now if Oswald did this alone and all the evidence pointed to Oswald alone why would they need to get bonny ray off the 6th floor ? .

many inaccurate , untrue and patently and intentionally false claims about this case are made and have been made by author , the media and in many videos . false reports were made by the press about this and other incidents that people believe . for example the press reported that Oswald was so cool calm and calculating that he sat in the snipers nest eating his chicken lunch and drinking his coke , this lie was to give people the false impression that sniper oswald was so cold and that killing jfk meant so little to him that he could sit there eating lunch rifle in hand . in fact the lunch found was not oswalds , it was williams lunch .

Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.

the chicken bones and coke bottle did not belong to Oswald they belonged to bonny ray who was sat on boxes a few feet from the snipers window. another false report was that during oswalds arrest at the theater Oswald shouted I GOT ME A PRESIDENT AND A COP AND ILL TRY FOR TWO MORE , lol that never ever was said by Oswald . in fact the reports by the all the witnesses (mostly cops ) were that Oswald protested police brutality and that he knew his rights and words to the effect of I AM NOT RESISTING ARREST , he said nothing more than that in the theater according to the witnesses , and he said very little in the police car enroute to the police station according to the police in the car with him . basically he said I didn't shoot anyone I haven't done anything to be ashamed of . so there are many false reports myths and even downright lies , and we have to work out what the lies are and push them aside and get to the truth of what really happened , how long Williams was on the 6th floor has also been distorted so lets find the truth.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

now the fbi wrote that Williams left the 6th floor just a few minutes after midday maybe 12.05 the latest , Williams says I was up there 5 /10 maybe 12 minutes .

Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time.
Mr. BALL. It was--
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

above boony ray says maybe as late as 12.20 , now heres how the warren commissions mr ball dealt with testimony he didn't care for

Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?

[fobrien1]

twice now bonny ray has said anywhere between 5 and maybe 12 minutes TWICE , mr ball responds to that with "Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now? " this is an example of how the warren commission treated witnesses that didn't say what they wanted them to say . the fbi twisted bonny rays statement to say he left the 6th floor after 5 minutes at 12.05 , and then mr ball tried to discredit Williams by insinuating he just didn't remember when he left the 6th floor , neither of which is accurate . bonny ray said maybe as late as 12.12 but I can prove he was up there even later until atleast 12.20 as he said himself above .

a young married couple called the rowlands were down on the street (on Houston street ) if you stood opposite the front door of the depository the rowlands would have been to your right across the street . the Rowlands stood in one position to see jfk but decided to move to another , they didn't like it so moved back to their original position .

Mr. ROWLAND - Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.
Mr. SPECTER - To position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND - We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.
Mr. SPECTER - Where was the Hertz time clock located?
Mr. ROWLAND - That was on top of the school depository building.
Mr. SPECTER - Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

so the rowlands returned to their original position at about 12.14 pm .

Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?
Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

so Rowland saw a man on the 6th floor with a rifle (AN ASSEMBLED RIFLE )at 12.15 , remember now Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald down on the 2nd floor eating lunch between this time and about 12.20pm  . the warren commission said that from 12.05 or so onwards Oswald assembled his snipers nest and his rifle , using a dime it took a minimal of 6 to 7 minutes to assemble the rifle and it had to have taken some minutes to move the boxes into place , that means if the man was Oswald he had to have been up  on the 6th floor atleast as early as 12.05 , meaning that IF IT WAS OSWALD he had to have gone up just after piper saw him and then he had to go back down again in order for Carolyn Arnold to see him at about 12.15 , a scenario I can only believe would never happen .

remember the motorcade was due about 12.20 , if Oswald went down at 12.15 after Rowland saw him and was then seen by Carolyn Arnold after that he really didn't leave himself any time to get back upstairs , jfk was running late but if Oswald was the shooter he had no way of knowing that . even the warren commission didn't offer this scenario so it was to ridiculous even for them and they came up with the laughable single bullet theory which ill talk about later . so either Oswald was on the 6th floor at midday and stayed there or he was never up there , theres no way he ran up and down the stairs it makes no sense , but Carolyn Arnold saw him down stairs on the 2nd floor at 12.15 or so and that was a huge problem for the warren commission and the fbi .

2?The Bureau?s report of its first interview, four days after the assassination, stated that as Arnold waited outside the TSBD to see the president, she noticed Oswald just inside the building, close to the front door, at about 12:15." FBI

that's what the fbi wrote (its not true ) she was still inside the building at that time and has two corroborating witnesses who were with her such as virgie rachley who corroborated that they were all on the 2nd floor at the time carolyn arnold said .

"?In March 1964, J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission asked the FBI to interview every employee of the TSBD again, asking each of them an identical and very limited set of questions. In her second statement, Carolyn Arnold maintained that she did not leave the building until about 12:25."FBI

above we see the fbi say she didn't leave the building till about 12.25 , this is a more accurate time scale . but the fbi tried hard to twist carolyns words

"As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM." fbi report

obviously the time wasn't 12.15 when she was outside it was nearer 12.25, the fbi then try to make it look as tho Carolyn is looking back behind her into the building when all of them were eagerly looking forward along Houston street for jfks limo to emerge . the object of this exercise was A/ to discredit Arnold i guess as unreliable but also to say well even if she looked back in the doors and saw Oswald she saw him at 12.15 giving him plenty of time to run upstairs , also it seems clear the reason for the fbi claiming Arnold placed Oswald near the front door is so that they could say OH WE KNOW WHAT IT WAS CAROLYN , YOU SAW BILLY LOVELADY AN OSWALD LOOK ALIKE , they could then argue that lee was up stairs after all and Carolyn simply made a mistake . but carolyn disputed the above saying she saw oswald up on the 2nd floor , she was not 100% on the time , she said maybe 12.15 or maybe as late as 12.25 , but her two office friends corroborated the time was around 12.15 pm or so .

" Oswald ?was sitting there ? in one of the booth seats on the right?hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.? Carolyn Arnold

Carolyn Arnold explicitly denied that her sighting of Oswald took place near the front doors:

?Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn?t make any sense to me.? Carolyn Arnold

so theres now confirmation from Arnold and virgie rachley that they started their journey down stairs at around 12.15 , and that Carolyn stopped for a drink of water in the lunchroom and saw Oswald there eating alone , we now also see how the fbi distorted her words .

ok now ill try to keep every thing in order and try not to confuse people , so now back to Arnold Rowland who saw a man in a 6th floor window with a rifle .

Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER - In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.


Representative FORD - After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I did, constantly.
Representative FORD - And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.
Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

did anyone see that ?

" Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time. " Arnold Rowland

Arnold Rowland said he saw the man with a rifle in a window at 12.15 he then told his wife , they both looked up at the building after that and didn't see the man with the rifle . but Arnold Rowland also says THAT WASNT THE WINDOW YOU GUYS SAY THE SHOTS CAME FROM , he goes further and says (the window that you guys say the shots came from ) WELL I SAW ANOTHER GUY HANGING OUT OF THAT WINDOW . just to be clear Arnold Rowland is saying that 12.15 he saw a man with a weapon in a window on the 6th floor at the end of the building nearest the grassy knoll , but thats not the window they say the shots came from ITS A DIFFERENT WINDOW . and at thaat same time he saw a second man hanging out another window the window where they say the shots were fired  (the so called snipers nest which was the 6th floor right hand corner window ) , that's 2 men on the 6th floor at 12.15 .

on to the next post for more .

[fobrien1]

Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.
Representative FORD - When did you notice him?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

just so we are clear , the east corner of the building would be on the right side of the building if you were standing in front of it , the west side would be the left side . officially Oswald fired the shots from the 6th floor east corner window .



that's the depository building , the east side is the right hand side of the building , the east window the snipers nest window is the window with the red square around it (that's the window the negro man was hanging out of at 12.15) the man with the rifle was on the same floor around the same time but he was at the west end of the building 3 or 4 sets of windows to the left , incidentally when the rifle was found it was found in the west end of the building .

the man that Rowland saw hanging out of a window was in the snipers nest window , the east corner window ,this man Rowland believed was a colored man or a negro man . now think back , who was sitting feet from that window eating his lunch ? BONNY RAY WILLIAMS . bonny ray was up there eating and at about 12.15 , he had arranged that his plas join him up there but they didnt show up . so its now not at all unreasonable (as we have a witness ) to assert that he went behind the boxes and looked out of the snipers nest window . Williams thought his co workers norman and jarmin would be joining him on the 6th floor but they hadn't appeared , so we have to feel that he must have thought maybe they are down on the street and went to the window and looked down so see if he could catch sight of them .

as it happens norman and jarmin were down there on the street for a bit . so if we accept the word of arnold rowland (and we have no earthly reason not to )  bonny ray was in the snipers nest at 12.15 or so looking out of the window , we know the time because Rowland said it was just past 12.15 on his watch and also on the big hertz clock on the roof of the depository . so that tells us a few  things for sure ,  Oswald wasn't hiding in the snipers nest as the warren commission and some authors claim , it also tells us Williams didn't leave the 6th floor as early as 12.05pm that he was still up there at 12.15pm , and remember he said him himself maybe 12.12 or 12.20 so Williams was reasonably accurate in his estimate . iy must be mentioned here that williams never admitted he was in the window , he made no such admission nor was he asked if he was , he simply said he left the floor . but the warren commission knew better than to ask a question with an answer that could damage their lone nut scenario .

all tho there is another possibility here of a third man on the 6th floor all be it an outside possibility, i will return to that in a bit briefly  . now Rowland very clearly indicated that the man he saw in the east corner window was a negro or dark complected man and that he wasn't the man with the rifle  , the man with the rifle was in a window on the west end of the building , the end of the building nearest the grassy knoll . so we now know that there were atleast two men on the 6th floor around 12.15 , logically one could have been Oswald , but if Carolyn Arnold is correct and truthful about seeing him on the 2nd floor at that time then we must discount the man with the rifle as being Oswald .

now very briefly Arnold Rowland said the negro man he saw in the snipers nest window may have been elderly

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.

all tho Rowland says he didn't pay that man much attention he did give a description of him .

very slender, very thin
bald or practically bald, or very thin hair if he wasn't bald,
50, possibly 55 or 60
5' 8", 5' 10"
very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark, can't recall detail but it [his skin] was either very wrinkled or marked in some way
had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color

the only negro depository employee that fits the description is eddie piper , heres a picture of him



Rowland may be mistaken here I don't know , but he either saw Williams or another negro , could it be that eddie piper went up on the 6th floor as Williams /norman /jarmin said they would be up there ? . which ever man it was it still means that Oswald wasn't hiding in the snipers nest and that he couldn't have entered the snipers nest until Williams left at about 12.20pm or so .

now Williams said he left the 6th floor and travelled down one floor to the 5th floor via the elevator

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down.
Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.
Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

so bonny ray walked across the floor to the elevator and went down one floor and then walked over to jarmin and norman who were there , id estimate this took no longer than a minute .

Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.

Williams was probably there with jarmin and norman on the 5th floor upwards of 5 minutes before the motorcade came .that means williams left the 6th floor a little after 12.20 .

now lets look at james jarmin and Harold norman and howard brennan as they sort of entertwine .

Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.

jarmin and norman finished their lunch quickly and went outside the building , they stood out there until about 12.20 when a call came on a police mans radio that jfk had just turned on main street , howard brennan another witness confirmed that people heard this radio call and such a call was indeed made and is on the police logs .

12.18 pm : Give us an ambulance, 100 block North Houston Street. Epileptic seizure.

a man had an epileptic fit on the corner of Houston and elm just after 12.15 and the police asked for an ambulance , howard brennan was just arriving to his position on the white wall opposite the depository at that time , by the time he sat on that wall it was about 12.20 pm .

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up. 

so brennan said  it was 12.18 on the clock when he finished lunch and that he took upwards of 4 minutes to get to the corner of houston nad elm . the epileptic fit was called in at 12.18 , so using brennans estimate above that it took him 4 minutes to get to his position on the white wall opposite the depository that he arrived there about 12.21 or 12.22 pm .

"Then, looking at the corner of the building, I noticed one man in the window. What drew my attention to him with all of the other people in the area, I don?t know. I looked at my watch and it was about 12:22. As I watched him, he went away from the window for a few seconds and then returned. I thought perhaps he was doing a special job and had just broken away from it for a moment to see what was happening outside." howard brennan

brennan looked up and saw the man at 12.22 pm

"After watching him for a while, I turned to look at some of the others and noticed two black men in the window directly underneath the lone man. There were exactly the opposite. They were laughing, smiling, waving to all who could see them and ?having the time of their lives.? It was a festive mood which everyone seemed to find contagious" howard brennan

so now we see a short time after seeing the man in the window at about 12.22pm brennan notices the 2 men in the window directly below the snipers nest window , this is norman and jarmin , we now have a time approaching 12.25 pm and that is when Williams joins jarmin and norman on the 5th floor near the window. this proves Williams was on the 6th floor till atleast 12.20 or a short time after that .

Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

bonny ray arrived on the 5th floor after jarmin and norman did .

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.
Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.

"As each minute passed the crowd grew more and more excited and I could feel this along with everyone else. It was a tingling sensation, a kind of mass intoxication that everyone was getting caught up in. At about 12:26 the word spread that the Presidential motorcade was approaching and it would be only a few minutes until it came into view." howard brennan

it might have taken a minute or two for the word to spread that jfk was on main st and to reach brennan but it seems certain jarmin and norman heard the news a few minutes before he did maybe about 12.22 or so , by the time they reached the 5th floor and opened the window and Williams joined them it had to have been roughly 12.25 pm .

Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?
Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.
Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

so now we see for sure that norman and jarmin were on the 5th floor in the window at around about 12.24 - 12.25pm and then willams joined them . Williams joined them , indicating that Williams must have left the 6th floor no more than about 1 minute earlier at about 12.22 - 12.23 , so Williams most certainly did not as the fbi falsely noted leave the 6th floor at 12.05 . they would surely have known by the statements of brennan /jarmin /norman and Rowland that that cant have been the case , yet they wrote a false report saying Williams left the 6th floor at 12.05 pm .

so now we know that 2 men were on the 6th floor at 12.15 or so , a man with a rifle in a west window , and a negro man was hanging out the east corner window . we know that Oswald was on the 2nd floor at this time eating alone . we know that Williams was on the 6th floor from a tad after midday till around 12.22pm , and we know he said he never saw or heard Oswald or anyone , and we know that either Williams or another negro man was actually inside the snipers nest at 12.15pm looking out the window . many people reading this will have never ever known about this stuff because authors and tv shows will not tell you this stuff , but we should all be looking closely at this stuff .

so if Williams or another negro man (or both men ) was in the snipers nest at 12.15 and he was sat there near the window till about 12.22 if Oswald is the shooter he now has a very very small window of only about 8 to 10 minutes to run up 4 flights of stairs , avoid williams , move the boxes into place and assemble his broken down carcano which takes 6 to 7 minutes to assemble according to testimony , that's a pretty tight window . and we must temper that with the knowledge that all tho jfk arrived on welm street at 12.30 that he was late by upwards of 10 minutes . but we know the man brennan saw at 12.22 already had his rifle assembled as did the man that Rowland saw at 12.15 , we now have to ask a  serious question which is when did Oswald have time to assemble his rifle ? , not from 11.40 to midday and it seems not from midday to atleast 12.15 pm , so how then is a man seen at 12.15 by Rowland with an already assembled rifle ? .

one more important question is how did Williams not see or atleast hear the man that Rowland saw in the west window ? . as I always say this case often gives us more questions than answers . but we now have a more accurate and true reflection of where oswald was , who saw him  , when he ewas seen , and who saw people OTHER THAN OSWALD , and it paints a different picture to the official picture . but because oswald had a window of time all be it a small one we must accept that while the above information makes it very difficult for oswald to be the shooter it doesnt rule him out .